Wednesday, March 28, 2012

Q & A on Flaking

Hey guys,  I thought for today's blog post i'd share some transcription of the audio from one of the weekly Monday night theory sessions I teach in Hollywood.  This particular night we were talking about texting, flaking, and how to mirror varying levels of disinterest with the girl.  This conversation is great because many guys not only are very scared to say negative things to women, but also most men don't really understand how to give calibrated negative energy to women.  Enjoy! 

Mike: I've got a girl whose flaked on me 3 times now, and...

Jake: How did she flake?

Mike: First time, we were gonna meet late on a weeknight for D2, like around 10:30, and she's like "I'm tired, I have to work."

Jake: Oh, so she texted you?

Mike: Yeah

Jake: Well that's not necessarily a flake. A flake is when you show up and she doesn't show up, and doesn't call or communicate anything.

Mike: Okay, so she cancelled and but was like very apologetic and wanted to reschedule. And I said okay let's reschedule.

Jake: So SHE said let's reschedule.

Mike: Yes

Jake: Okay, that's a good sign.

Mike: That was time number one. The 2nd time we had agreed to meet up again and then she locked herself out of her apartment and couldn't get her clothes or anything until her roommate came back.

Jake: So that's what she said.

Mike: Yes. She also said "I'm really sorry, can we please reschedule for this other day."

Jake: Did you give her shit for that?

Mike: Oh, yeah.

Jake: What'd you say?

Mike: I subtracted cool points from her.

Jake: Ugh, that's never effective. I've had this one student who was into "cool points", I'd puke every time I heard him say it.

Mike: I'm reading her text, she texted "Do I lose points for this", she prompted it first, and I said "Yeah, you lose points for that."

Jake: Okay, that's different.

Mike: I'm trying not to make her feel too shitty about it because I don't want her to feel super guiltily because then she'd... but I assume if she feels really shitty she'll be like "Oh, I don't want to see this guy because I was a jerk to him."

Jake: Yes, but at the same time you need to let her know that this is unacceptable. So if she's like "can we reschedule again..." I'd make her do a little work there.

Mike: Yeah, so she said "Can we reschedule again" and I said "okay I'm a little busy but we can meet for a drink on Sunday at 7pm". Then she texted me at 3pm that afternoon and said "I'm getting drunk with my friends, you can meet us at the bar we're at".

Jake: Dead air. Nothing. I wouldn't call, I wouldn't text, I wouldn't call her back that day for any reason at all. I would dead air it until she supplicated, and even if she continued to text you a bunch that day like "I'm so sorry blah blah blah" and she texted you ten times, I would still just completely dead air that entire day and wait three days like nothing happened, and then I would text her "Oh, hey, I must have missed your text the other day", some shit like that, some obvious lie, that's what I would do. So what happened, what'd you do?

Mike: I ignored it and said "Thanks but I'm working now, pace yourself, and I'll see you..."

Jake: Yeah you're too nice. She flakes on you and you're like "That's okay, we'll do it again" you're being too nice about it. The chick is "Hey it's not gonna work again today, I'm so sorry, can we meet this day?" and I'd say "No". Period. I would make her feel bad about it, she needs to feel a fear of loss. I'd be a little more stern about it.

Mike: The very last text I sent, she kept saying "Come to this bar, come here" and I finally just said "I can't".

Jake: Don't say "I can't". I would just dead air that type of thing. Any time a girl wants you come to a bar and meet up with her friends who are already there drinking I would just dead air it. I would not even respond. And the next day, or two days later, I'd say "Oh, hey, I must have missed your text the other day."  You're just too busy to even text her back. How do you think that makes a girl feel when you just dead air her? She's thinking "Ooh, he didn't like that, I better try something else if I want to hang out with him". She'd be working to do something else. You need to be a little more stern. The 1st time she misses I'd say, what did she say on her text the 1st time she missed?

Mike: She said "Don't completely hate me but the thought of going out at ten on a weekday is brutal any chance you'd be up for a rescheduling during normal human hours, believe me I'd be no fun at all tonight"

Jake: "I hate you." Period. Wait for her response. See what I'm saying? You're going so far, she's like "don't hate me", and you say "I hate you". And that's pretty funny, but now she's gotta work some more. You got it?

Mike: Yeah, take it to the extreme. So it's not like I'm genuinely angry, the anger is kind of absurd.

Jake: And then she'll say "No, really, I really want to hang out with you" and I'd say "What day do you want to hang out" and she says "Friday" and I say "What time?" and she says "8:00" and then I say "Nope" and she says "Really?" or something like that, and I'll say "No, Friday works". So do you see how I made her work a little bit more for it in the process?"

Mike: Yeah, I like it.

Jake: That's what we're gonna do. So the 2nd time she flakes, what'd she say?

Mike: The 2nd time she said "You probably think I'm lying but it looks like I locked myself out of the house and my roommate doesn't get home until 10pm".

Jake: You say "I do think you're lying". Right, you get it? This is in the case where she's supplicating to you. Do you guys notice that this is a girl who really does want to go out with him because she says "you're gonna think I'm lying blah blah blah", if she didn't want to go out with him she wouldn't want to respond, she would just flake. What is happening right now is something is more important than him. Does she really have this thing going on? Maybe, maybe not, but in this case she is "you're gonna think I'm lying but blah blah blah".

Mike: I feel like the first two excuses were valid, but on the 3rd time she says like "Oh, I just went out with my friends and got drunk instead of hanging out with you tonight" so I was genuinely upset.

Jake: She said "You're gonna think I'm lying" and what else?

Ray: "but I've locked myself out of my house and my roommate isn't getting home until 10pm so on that note are you still available on Wednesday?".

Jake: Why would she know you are available on Wednesday?

Mike: Because we talked about either meeting on a Monday or a Wednesday, I gave her two choices.

Jake: I would say "What time were you thinking" and she would say like "9ish" and I would say "Okay cool let's just switch it" and it would be no big deal on the 2nd time. That's what I'd do there. Then the 3rd time that she switches I'd be like, I would just dead air her completely. So do you understand how the punishment mirrors the offense?

Mike: Explain a little bit more.

Jake: The severity of the 3rd time it happened caused you to take the most severe attitude you can, which is abandoning her.

Mike: So the 1st time she had kind of a bullshit excuse,  so I gave her...

Jake: some bullshit

Mike:  The 2nd time it was a legitimate excuse so..

Jake: I was like "no big deal" because that's a logistical issue, something bad happened, we're mirroring the level of severity of what happened.

Mike: The 3rd time was like...

Jake: she was blowing you off and I just wouldn't even respond. That's how you should look at it. That's the filter I'm putting this through, I'm thinking to myself "Okay, what is her situation? Is it valid or not? Is this something I like or I don't like?" If I really don't like it, I'm just gonna be like "fuck you", I'm not going to respond at all because, fuck that. But if it's like a valid concern, and she's really supplicating, and she's like "hey I'm gonna think you're lying but I had this terrible thing happen..." then I'm like "cool, no worries, let's just do it Wednesday at 8", you know? And then the 1st one, what was her 1st excuse?

Mike: Her 1st excuse was that she was tired.

Jake: Oh, yeah, she's like "Don't hate me but I'm tired" and I'd say "I hate you", the reason I make it light on the first one is because it's the first one, you gotta give the girl the benefit of the doubt or you're a terrible person. If you don't have some flexibility and it's the firstt time something like that happens then you're just an asshole. You have to have some flexibility. The 2nd time she had some thing happen, so you're like "okay, cool, no worries, you had some thing happen, let's hang out Wednesday, no big deal." Then the 3rd time she's like "I'm getting drunk", that doesn't even deserve a response. And then she's gonna have to really work hard if she's gonna pull herself out of that one because any self-respecting guy would be just like "fuck you".


The End.  Hope you enjoyed reading.  Questions?


  1. Yeah I used to do the cool point thing myself but it had a low success rate. I think most girls view it as trying too hard to project value; when it does work it seems to be only on girls who aren't very bright, or else just like guys who are complete assholes. Seems better to express approval/disapproval without putting some weird label on it.

    So you go for an immediate reschedule if it's only the first offense and/or she has a good excuse, is that what I'm hearing?

    1. I'm not sure that girls do or don't view it as trying too hard, it's just simply not something that cool guys say. The idea isn't to avoid acting low value or try-hard, it's to act like the highest value guys act.

      As far as your second comment about the immediate reschedule, it's not that cut and dry. I go decision by decision, weighing all factors involved.

  2. Great read. I dead air this girl (ex-girlfriend) for months and she always comes back to me... despite the fact that she has a boyfriend.

    She says she's happy and in love with him. What's going on here?

    1. This is pretty normal girl behavior. Often they want a safety net guy for if they breakup with the guy they're with. Other times girls will next a guy for temporary exclusivity with another guy, then after that relationship they're back. I've got a number of girls who call/text me once a month even though they're in relationships. When they breakup then they call and schedule a meetup, we'll have sex, and then they don't feel as bad about their breakup.

  3. Useful advice in here, thanks

  4. This stuff is really golden, thanks for sharing Jake. It helps a lot to see the mentality of a coach and how they think through these scenarios.

    Perhaps it could become a regular thing to publish audio of the sessions with the pickup mansion guys, maybe for 30/30 members? We can't all afford to go live in Hollywood but I'm sure there are many people who would extract a lot of value from these seminars.

    1. Glad you like the post man. Unfortunately like I said this is only a sneak peak into what it's like living in the mansion and having us personally work on your game every week. You don't have to live in Hollywood in the mansion to get this type of training though! You can always take a public workshop or a 1-on-1 training and we'd be glad to take a look at you.

  5. BACKGROUND: I've already fucked her, but she is a highly unstable, socially competent girl who is ADD and can get pretty flaky from time to time. I double-flake reversal-ed her once, which worked perfectly, then the next time she flaked, I somehow ran into her at a place, took her home and fucked her that night. I live in a somewhat small town so this type of thing is not unusual. I ran into her Saturday night and made plans to meet up last night at her place at 7:30. Texted her around 5 just to check in because like I said, pretty flaky behavior. She responded promptly and it was all good. 30 minutes later, she texts me this.

    Her: Wanna get your vball on?

    Clearly she's trying to switch up the plan where we would be with her friends, but I have no patience for this stuff since I made plans with another girl just in case this one did what I was expecting her to do.

    So basically I expressed that I did not want to do this, but if she wanted to it would be no big deal. Then my plan would be to ignore her for a while until she realizes that she fucked up and started chasing me like crazy. So you said your filter would be "What's her situation?" "Is it valid?" If these answers are no, then just be like "fuck you." Which is exactly what I intended to convey through my actions. Then Jake mentioned that he would ignore the girl until she supplicated, and this is where the confusion lies for me because of this text.

    Me: "Listen it's whatever. I figured it'd be cool to chill tonight, but if you want to go play volleball, do your thing. It's really no big deal to me."

    Her: "I've legit dipped out on you before and I'm not trying to be like that so I'd understand if you were just like whatever, nothing new. But legit I'm not trying to be like that. I just want to be outside for a bit."

    My problem is that her excuse is total bullshit, I don't like it, and I just want to be like fuck you. But she's trying to supplicate. In the end, I chose to dead air her. I intend to continue to do so until she's chasing me like crazy. Anyone have any thoughts?

    1. So let me make sure i've got this straight. You slept with this girl once and you're trying to meet up and possibly go for round two. You've got plans to hang at 7:30 and you text her at 5pm to kinda verify things cause she's flaky. She's cool with hanging out then decides to change the plans up a bit.

      Here's what i'd do. First off, if you're meeting at 730pm i'd probably shoot her a text at like 545 saying "Jumping in the shower, see you in a bit ;)" This'll let her know that you're already committed to hanging out with her. Sounds like you did something like this, so good work.

      Next thing that happens is she texts you "wanna get your vball on." Let's think about her situation. Here she's being pretty enthusiastic about playing some volleyball. From that i'd guess she's likely in some type of league or something or at least plays volleyball somewhat on the regular, i'd guess with friends and for fun. Two people just don't play volleyball with each other, so it's pretty obvious that her friends have asked her to join a group of people who are already going to play. There's also likely going to be a dude or two there also because she wouldn't just invite you to an all girls thing in the beginning stages of dating.

      So this girl sleeps with you and then is inviting you to a group event with her friends and likely one or more of the guys her friends are sleeping with. Sounds to me like she wants to implement you into her social circle. Pretty reasonable thing, i'd say.

      The part I think you're missing is that this girl has kind of already decided in her mind that volleyball is her best social option for the night. She's likely not trying to play some type of game with you, it's just that in her world it's pretty normal for a guy she dates to do a group-type activity like this, and if you go she'll also be able to get her friend's opinions of you in the process. My recommendation would be flexible and open to the idea of doing something like this, and when you go and have fun, you'll likely end up getting laid afterwards. What's so bad about this?

      Okay, so I get it. You wanna fuck her, it sucks that she changed shit up, and maybe you just really don't wanna play some gay ass volleyball. That's okay too. I'd just tell her something to the effect of "Wow that sounds super fun, but I killed myself in the gym today so i'm not sure i'm up for it. How bout I take a raincheck and we'll just hang soon." Here you're empathizing with her and offering her a "legit" excuse for not wanting to go with so that she doesn't feel guilty about breaking plans. Also, you look very non-needy, so when you pair that with "hang soon" she'll gently be drawn towards you and wonder when she'll get to hangout with you again. She'll also feel a bit of loss that she didn't get to hangout with you and on some level she'll feel responsible for it. Responsible, not guilty. That's important.

      All this make sense? Now let's move on to your texting.

      Your text "listen, it's whatever..." is super bitter. You say it's no big deal in your text, but in reality you're lacing what you say with heavy heavy meaning. This type of action is completely transparent to a girl and quite frankly makes you look very childish. You can be smarter about how you handle this in the future so that you don't lose girls unnecessarily, but this time it kinda worked and she understood you were upset.

      If we look at her text to you after this, she tries to communicate with you because she understands how you're feeling. She's like "Hey I get it that you think i'm flaking because what's happened in the past with me would indicate that, but I really wanna do this thing so I think it's a great solution that we both go and to it."

    2. When you add it up, I think this girl really likes you and does want to hang out, just in this instance she believes she's got something more fun for the two of you than what you had already planned. Yes she's acting on her emotion in the moment and probably wants to have her friends assess you too, but this is a pretty normal thing for girls to do. In other words, I don't agree with you that her excuse is total bullshit, and I think in this case if you wanna be like "fuck you" then it would be a bitter and somewhat childish action to take.

      It might suck to hear all this, but in the end this girl is majorly supplicating to you already by explaining herself and communicating with you when she saw that you were upset. I really can't fault her for her actions. Though they are definitely the type of unexpected things that women do, they are pretty normal.

      So my advice to you is to try and be a little more flexible. This girl did fuck you and is trying to hangout with you, so even though it's annoying, it's not flaking. Also, remember if you don't wanna do what the chick wants to do, you don't have to, just find a smart way to tell her no. Whatever you do, don't show your anger through a bitter text, because many girls won't stick around when a guy acts that way. Shit, play some volleyball every now and then and this chick'll probably fuck you for a long long time.

    3. Bravo. Bravo, sir.

      I love that you take the time to answer all your comments. Amazing blog.